Curse

Gattocheese · Sep 11, 2007, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Why wouldn't they use the old skins? This takes place in Tyria, thus why the skins are mostly Tyrian. If you notice, the green rewards at the end of factions are mostly non-unique skins also. I don't hear you bitching about that. BTW all these skins are unique themselves because of the color. At least this time the caster item stats don't suck (yay cheap 40/40 sets).

You sound just like Gaile Grey. That the armor is tyrian and it fits the lore so live with the reskins. Yeah that makes sense that Canthan and NF armor is in GWEN, yeah it makes perfect sense to have new races wear the same thing i have already had. It makes perfect sense to mix and not match alot of pieces. Give me a break.

If your fine with the reskins, enjoy by all means, but dont try to say it fits in with GWEN, thats one of the lamest excuses i have ever heard.

cryptology · Sep 11, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

In the end, I don't think that the hardcore community is the life support for the game. Hardcore players can leave, but there will always be new players coming in to replace them. Only the hardcore players can say "oh I won't buy GW2 because..." But any new or casual player will be like "Wow, I like to play GW, so I think I'll pick up GW2".

I don't have a problem with the armor skins. I think some of them are ugly, but at first look, I wouldn't have known they're reskins. But that's probably because I'm only half hardcore.

My favorite replies:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff Mon

Jeff Strain's speech made more sense to me.

I know entirely too much about this game- and it is easy for me in PvE. Even new monsters with new skills are easy to figure out. Then I think back to when I was first playing and spent weeks trying to get past Thunderhead Keep or some of the desert missions. The game was not that different then, there were just less people who knew what skills to use or how to play. Now I can blaze a new character through in no time....

I'm still trying to figure out the mechanics for myself, and I truly enjoyed GW:EN. I finished it in a weekend, but that didn't disappoint me at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

...To some, it feels disappointing that this new expansion doesn't deliver. I feel that for those people, the magic is gone. People are are jaded, and only see the negatives in everything and so quick to point out any error, minor or major....

QFT. Once you know every nook and cranny, the game completely inside and out, it's hard to be impressed. As mentioned before, people of this type can throw together a build that will counter whatever they encounter, which makes it *seem* terribly easy. I went through GW:EN with a limited skill set and VERY basic hero builds. Jora is still running her default build. It was quite a challenge for me.

Some responses:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Great post OP and I would also like to see Anet's response to any of the hot debate topics that have popped up since the release of GWEN. It seems they've been trying to hide in the shadows after the release of the expansion with the lack of replies lately.

It's less than two weeks since release. "Hot debate topics" and their answers can't just be answered outright for political reasons, which burden all companies and businesses. Things like this need to be run by the higher ups and what not... and that obviously takes time. I think the PR's here on the board have done the best job that they are allowed to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

A lot of people are posting that "11 hours in a row, you are part of the 10% that are hardcore" or similar. The thing is, sure Sha did it in 11 hours in a row...but I did it in 11 hours (with ONLY heroes/hench) spread out over several days. It's the same thing, the game only takes that amount of time, regardless of whether you play it all at once, or over a week or two.

It's true that the main story may breeze by after only a few hours of in-game time, but GW:EN is much more vast than people give it credit for. If you want that all-out, hack'n'slash, get to the end game type of experience, then you're doomed for disappointment not only here, but with GW2 as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

I think back to Cyndr.

Cyndr was rediculously easy. Talk to your little Dwarven friend, drop a keg on Cyndr, and attack. It took me three kegs and about 2 minutes of fighting. The Great Destroyer, on the other hand, required me to jump into a group of people and make a couple attempts. But I see your point. Murakai was definitely harder for me than The Great Destroyer, but then again, Abbadon was also much easier for me than Shiro in Nightfall. I guess it depends on your build. :P

Cebe · Sep 11, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

I think I speak for most players when I say the difficulty is about right. They always said the dungeons would have a Sorrow's Furnace level of difficulty and I would say that's correct - not a "lie" - and a good thing for most. Hard mode will surely come along for the players like you and will have, I'm sure, better rewards to go with the tougher challenges.

I think the only thing new in the post was the unlimited rez's in the dungeons. I'm personally in favor, but I can see the argument against it. Again, wait for Hard Mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

Sounds like you want the whole thing to be more DoA, kick your ass for breakfast, lunch, and dinner until someone makes easy builds. I don't really see the point. And I actually like the ressing in dungeons, it's bad enough the rewards aren't much... it would be absolute crap to have to grind them over and over if you just want it completed or something.

These two posts pretty much sum up what my thoughts are. As well constructed as the OP is, it is flawed. Consider DoA. Consider the sheer volume of people who will never be able to do it. If ArenaNet made an entire expansion like DoA, to keep "elite" players happy, consider how much more complaining they would get from the more casual players.

I am fine with the difficulty of the dungeons. Only a couple have made me think "perhaps that was a bit too easy". Catacombs of Kathandrax was more difficult to get to than the dungeon was to complete, for instance. I am certainly not against being able to resurrect at res shrines in Dungeons. One reason for that is Frostmaw's Burrows.

For those who love having their asses handed to them on a plate, with a little sprig of parsely and salted to taste, for a week before someone finds the "one build for rule them all", I'm sure Hard Mode wont be too far away. I was also wondering if the "dark island to the north" will be included in any "future content"...was only a thought, I'm unsure if any "DoA-Style" content will be added since this is the final expansion...but that island is so mysterious...

zwei2stein · Sep 11, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr

Well thought-out and written.

I fully agree with most points.

About giving the destroyers healers/protectors however, I have to disagree partially - from the lore, their only purpose is to destroy. Everything. So having members of their species who focus on healing & restoration does not make sense. I would, however, like to see an innate damage reduction / health regeneration for them, to make up for their lack of monks & similar.

On the account of Hard Mode, I am disappointed about it not being in the game yet, but it is supposedly currently being worked on, and will hopefully be released soon.

Based on lore, they could have Smiter monks.

This is for example build their monks could have:

Smiters Boon
Divine Boon
Zealots Fire
Smite Hex
Smite Condition
Reversal of Damage
Defenders Zeal (E)
Castigation Signet

Would be shitty build for player, but ai couldnt care less about not being that great.

Hell, they could just give old AoE Smiter build to their monks and it would fit with lore.

quickmonty · Sep 11, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Been playing GW for 27 months.

Although I don't agree entirely with OP, it is very well tought out and written. Those things I don't agree with have already been pointed out by other posters, so I won't go into detail.

One of my main concerns at this point in time is PR. Lately it seems that they are talking down to us, rather than listening. Sure, those posting here are only a fraction of the GW community, but most public polls are based on a much smaller percentage of the whole.

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread, and to all who have posted intelligent replies.

wilderness · Sep 11, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Dear Anet,

as someone suggested before me in the thread, HM isn't Hard Mode it's drawn out mode. Any PvE area in GWs is entirely predictable... but still, it would have been nice if a few of these supposedly 'higher level' challenges had been a little drawn out...

I H+Hed the entire game + some of the dungeons. Beat the 'Great' Destroyer in a couple of minutes with two interrupters in my AI party (and I was on sleep walk, the closest to actual input I made was flagging my allies out of the lava...)

Cyndr promised a challenge until, 15 seconds in, I realized that if you flagged your company apart enough for his one threatening attack to only hit one target a time that he was a cake fest... 2 barrel runs + a couple of interrupts and he was gone..

I do realize the game is designed to give you the option of teaming up with friends or running with AI controlled allies, but why is a content that promises high level content only easier to beat by yourself than every single chapter before it?

Now pls, don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved the set up of EoTN. The quest chains worked a million times more fun into the game than the mission set up in previous chapters, the solo missions were a really nice distraction, and some of the humour attached was very cool (-1337 dmg to the indestructible golems, the horrid 'noob' builds used by some of your opponents in the bison cup, the brilliant ALIENS references in Arachni's Haunt etc..), but I was still left feeling like a beta tester instead of a conquering hero...

HoM, Armour reskins, rez shrines in 'elite' areas, silly power up consumables that take ALL challenge away from the game (wipe all dp +10%moral, 25% buff to all speed and cast/recharge... wth?).. while these things could be considered superficial or even some kind of elitist snobbery, they do feel like a slap in the face to die-hard fans of a company that we've invested quite a lot of time and money in.

I believe in you Anet; the core of GWs is absolutely innovative and fun, (I even started a thread entitled 'post your love for EoTN here' upon playing the very promising preview..) but so far I just feel like a guinea pig for your business model and GWs2.

I will be buying GWs 2, but I certainly won't hold onto it hoping as I have done here.

Yours Sincerely,

A Tentative Fan.

.defekt · Sep 11, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

GW isn't for hardcore PvE players, if you are really that unhappy, find another game.

Would you mind telling me what GW is for, then? Why would ANet add Hard Mode if they didn't want people to be serious about PvE? Why would they create such zones as Urgoz, The Deep, etc. if they didn't indend for people to take them seriously? ANet intended for Hard Mode to be hard, regardless of whether you think it was or not. Back your posts up with reasoning imo.

wilderness · Sep 11, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

Would you mind telling me what GW is for, then? Why would ANet add Hard Mode if they didn't want people to be serious about PvE? Why would they create such zones as Urgoz, The Deep, etc. if they didn't indend for people to take them seriously? ANet intended for Hard Mode to be hard, regardless of whether you think it was or not. Back your posts up with reasoning imo.

Don't mind Malice, he tends to drop in and out of threads like that lending his ideas as gospel. Most of us are used to it by now

What Anet probably should have done was set EoTN to HM as standard with an optional Normal Mode. That would have made more sense for apparently elite high level content.

Kusandaa · Sep 11, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

I partially agree with the OP. The storyline isn't very challenging, and is too short. I was expecting a longer storyline I guess, much like the 3 other campaigns. But nope. One quest with 3 main sub-quests and sub-sub quests, takes only a few hours to complete (without skipping cutscenes either), and a easy-as-hell final boss. Armor reskinning, weapon reskinning...

But I can deal with that. I don't play GW for the storyline, too corny and predictable IMHO. If I don't like armor or weapons, I don't buy it, and I don't "grind" for anything I want (eh, Norn points were long to get, but IMHO that was worth it x]). Instead, I do dungeons and I have resumed my general gameplay. And yet I don't feel I've wasted my money on the expansion.

I play for fun, and I'm having fun so far, even though I've gone through the game already and I've had to farm points for the armor.

If you find this game too easy... just PUG the whole thing without looking a people's skill bars. You'll be surprised on how a good team made of people you know, and some random people who will charge the next mob even if your monks say "AFK" makes a BIG difference. >_>.

wilderness · Sep 11, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

If you find this game too easy... just PUG the whole thing without looking a people's skill bars. You'll be surprised on how a good team made of people you know, and some random people who will charge the next mob even if your monks say "AFK" makes a BIG difference. >_>.

A decent level of difficulty for a supposedly high level only expansion and frustration with pugs are not the same thing...

Cass · Sep 11, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I think Hard Mode should make the following changes:

Debug the monster skills. Diamondshard Mist should not be divertible. Lava Wave should not leave the giant lava turkey vulnerable to life stealing.

That's got to be the dumbest thing I've read on Guru in a long time. Wow.

How is such blatant cheating ("immunity to diversion") a good thing? Do you think it is somehow cool to battle a computer opponent who uses numerous cheats to completely bypass the game mechanics?

A real, interesting challenge would be one in which the foes have and use skills in an intelligent way, or have varied builds that challenge you. Given the long journeys one makes in PvE, you could easily be forced to face many different teambuilds on mobs. It would be challenging to defeat all because of their variation (e.g., beat an NR/Tranq build and then an ele spike, then a physical team etc). What would you bring for the trip?

Sure, the program cannot handle that much, it uses its skills poorly more often than not, so some cheating is justified. It may also add to the story in that you are battling a truly powerful foe. And accordingly, the computer foes already have lvl30, massive health, armor, infinite energy, monster-only skills of epic power, double damage rates, halved hexes and conditions times etc etc. In my view, some of these are really pushing it too far already.

But please do not ask for more blatant cheats that border on the outright ridiculous by simply denying any effect on recharge... might as well deny all magic damage if you're at it. Or no life stealing. Or have the human team regen energy at -4. Or half their health when they come close. Fun? No.

---

In general, I would like to add that I feel sorry for those that take PvE so seriously that they want it to be some absurd challenge. So that only 10-hour sessions with gimmick builds can complete dungeons/areas. Guildwars is a very shallow game as far as PvE is concerned, and I am amazed at how people continue to find it so enthralling. The story is laughable, character development practically nil, items are never an issue. Hell, there is even so little prestige in GW PvE that titles are a major part of it... think about that; titles. "Delver" lol. Hard mode is a joke as well... doing the same thing twice: Anets take on How-2-Dupe content.

PvE is quite OK in GW up to a fairly advanced stage, and it's fine overall for relaxed play. Also you need a place to dress your Barbie up. It's not a place for a real challenge because the program simply can't handle that. Foes are dumb. No amount of arbitrary cheating rules that favor them can change that. Sure, their cheating will make it harder, but not more interesting. And that's the problem.

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I personally would like to see the OP take on GW:EN with a maximum of 6 skills on all party member's skillbars, no elites allowed, no PVE skills, no runes, only blue weapons with no mods, no res, no insignias, no inscriptions and less than max party members.

Theres so many ways to make the game more challenging and more fun, if you have the imagination or willingness to do so. I remember reading about a guild who plays through the game, and if your character is killed once, that character must be deleted.

Government Flu · Sep 11, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I have not read any other post other than the original "open letter." If someone else has already stated similar opinions, I apologize. Now then, to answer your presented questions:

1. Using a well organized build you can effectively defeat anything in the game, from the most difficult of creations to the simplest of enemies. While I am also wondering why this caste of creatures have no healers in their classes, you have to understand not everyone owns all of the campaigns and furthermore, not everyone knows all of the best builds and combinations. For veteran players, many enemies may seem like pushovers because we already know the ins and outs. However, you must understand many, many people are still struggling to figure out the game mechanics.

2. The endgame weapons are indeed reskins of older weapons, but ArenaNet is known for adding new content into the game at later dates to keep the community interested. Furthermore, saying that Nightfall had excellent weaponery is a matter of opinion. For instance, you mention that the Forgotten Blade is a cool skin. I, however, think it looks like a bent katana. Having owned a Forgotten Blade, I quickly grew annoyed at it.

So who knows? A group of people may very well just like the new endgame weapons!

3. Before I delve into this in detail, I'd just like to say that I defeated Remnant of Antiquities and have found him to be a pushover if you use an interrupt or two. (I had Zho in my hench set up.) Nonetheless, it did take a while to kill him. Now, on to the subject proper! ArenaNet has stated that the expansion will be tailored for a more casual style of gameplay. I'm a veteran of guild wars for the past 15 months, having picked up all of the campaigns over time starting with Factions.

Nonetheless, I'm busier than I used to be and find that I can fit very little time into playing Guild Wars. To me, Eye of the North provides fast paced, fun, yet sometimes challenging game play that I can pick up and drop anytime. While the expansion has many shortcomings, it doesn't require too much time to get into, and I appreciate that these days.

4. I do find it odd that NPCs revive constantly and when I first screwed up on a dungeon I was surprised I could continue going. However, this is ArenaNet's solution to make game play more casual. Furthermore, the use of consumables will allow a party to make up for a mistake without having to do an area all over again, so the game is more forgiving with the expansion.

If you want a challenge, then Hard Mode awaits. I've vanquished 8 areas in Factions, certainly not much but enough to get a feel of how vastly different HM is from normal mode. I'm assuming they'll add HM to Eye of the North soon, where NPCs die for good in dungeons and no resurrection is possible. You just have to be patient.

5. The game is still rather new and ArenaNet is certain to make several changes to the mechanics and AI.

6. Perhaps to a looter that makes an amazing amount of platinum every day, the destroyer weapons seem like an easy task, but remember what I said before...this expansion is tailored to a casual auidence. And yes, I know how it's like to grind for something very difficult to attain, like a full set of obsidian armor. I worked my ass off for 3 months to get all the funds together.

Nonetheless, there are always the chaos gloves to look for. 75 ectos and 10k isn't necessarily a walk in the park. To some it may be, but I personally just get too tired to do more than a few UW runs every now and again.

7. I have to agree that the armors are a major disappointment, at least when you get into profession specifics. Most of them are obvious reskins, with very little thought put into them. Yet, I do give ArenaNet a thumbs up for creating common armors like shades and masks that any profession can wear.

So it's not all bad.

8. See my answer to question number 4.

All in all, ArenaNet is not a perfect company, but it has done its best to do what the community has asked for. People stayed in Pre-Sear and wanted bonus content. They got it in the form of a unique title and special Charr items.

I've browsed the forums and people had asked for armor you can only get from collectors that would require a large amount of collectible drops. The community recieved this.

I even remember seeing a thread where one poster suggested ArenaNet make some skills that are affected by being drunk in-game. And what do you know, they actually added a Norn skill that does this!

So yes, there are many faults in the way Guild Wars is handled, but there are also many shining examples of a fine game within. ArenaNet cannot possibly tailor their game to every single audience, but I personally feel they've done a fine job.

Avarre · Sep 11, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I personally would like to see the OP take on GW:EN with a maximum of 6 skills on all party member's skillbars, no elites allowed, no PVE skills, no runes, only blue weapons with no mods, no res, no insignias, no inscriptions and less than max party members.

Theres so many ways to make the game more challenging and more fun, if you have the imagination or willingness to do so. I remember reading about a guild who plays through the game, and if your character is killed once, that character must be deleted.

So in order to have fun, you choose to play sub-par? I think quite a few good players enjoy playing well, and would like to be put to a test that stretches the maximum capability of the player team, rather than just gimping themselves to try and make the game harder.

Granted, I know your suggestion has been used before (people making nm chars in d2, or underpowered characters for challenge) and certainly works for a certain player mentality, but it's not a solution for everyone.

wilderness · Sep 11, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So in order to have fun, you choose to play sub-par? I think quite a few good players enjoy playing well, and would like to be put to a test that stretches the maximum capability of the player team, rather than just gimping themselves to try and make the game harder.

Granted, I know your suggestion has been used before (people making nm chars in d2, or underpowered characters for challenge) and certainly works for a certain player mentality, but it's not a solution for everyone.

Well said. Deleted my previous post as it got in the way of this one.

Also, if you find a substantial number (this early on at least) having to invent ways to create challenge or interest, then surely something is wrong?

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

So in order to have fun, you choose to play sub-par? I think quite a few good players enjoy playing well, and would like to be put to a test that stretches the maximum capability of the player team, rather than just gimping themselves to try and make the game harder.

Granted, I know your suggestion has been used before (people making nm chars in d2, or underpowered characters for challenge) and certainly works for a certain player mentality, but it's not a solution for everyone.

Thats why theres a handicap in golf.

It's interesting how some players can say "Let me play the way i wanna play" and demand more free-roaming and freedom in the game but at the same time some players demand that Anet be the one to determine how their gameplay turns out, for them to give them hardmode and let Anet determine what makes the game hard.

While i agree that my idea is not for everyone, neither is hardmode. Wouldn't you say?

Now....it won't have the same REWARD as hardmode. ie: better loot/etc. and thats part of the equation too.

nugzta · Sep 11, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Playing chess against highly intelligent AI is better than playing chess blindfolded. But GW PvE is more like playing chess blindfolded to be challenging.

twicky_kid · Sep 11, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

No subscription fees means a lack of further investment investment. It's painful considering PvP tournaments suffered, and now it's painful because of the woefully poor characteristics of the PvE. What was GW advertised as? A game with little-no grind? A game where skill > time spent? I'm pretty sure I've been disappointed throughout, ever since the initial release of Prophecies, with how ArenaNet failed to stick to that principle that they highlighted so massively when GW was in production.

Which is why some developers have left GW for other games that will be coming out soon.

Loved your post. GWEN feels to me like a cash grabber. Maybe they didn't have enough to money to carry them through the development of GW2. So they came out with a quick expansion (WHICH THEY SWORE TO NEVER DO) to get some cash.

All the places are easy. The skills are horrible even for PvP. I have yet to find anything good to say about GWEN besides I now have a 2nd mes hero, a 3rd ele, and a 3rd monk.

Ferret · Sep 11, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Government Flu

All in all, ArenaNet is not a perfect company, but it has done its best to do what the community has asked for. People stayed in Pre-Sear and wanted bonus content. They got it in the form of a unique title and special Charr items.

I've browsed the forums and people had asked for armor you can only get from collectors that would require a large amount of collectible drops. The community recieved this.

I even remember seeing a thread where one poster suggested ArenaNet make some skills that are affected by being drunk in-game. And what do you know, they actually added a Norn skill that does this!

So yes, there are many faults in the way Guild Wars is handled, but there are also many shining examples of a fine game within. ArenaNet cannot possibly tailor their game to every single audience, but I personally feel they've done a fine job.

I have to say i agree with 'Government Flu' who posted above.

GW:EN is a great expansion for the more regular or casual player and not as easy as you seem to make out. Though i have so far managed to complete the areas i have done, i died lots and found parts very frustrating and i am glad it is not harder. I have to say how thankful i was for res shrines in the dungeons as i dont generally have enough time to play to have a party wipe after an hours play and have to do it all over again, just to get to the next area.

I can see that the game may seem easy to the Elite, but that is what Hard Mode is all about and it WILL be coming, so you can really push yourselves while the rest of us get on with the regular game.

The Destroyer Weapons are not all that cheap or easy to get for most people, much like some of the elite 'gloves'.

I have to say the only thing i'd really want to change is the rank requirements or rep reward rate. If everything was lowered by one rank for requirements, i dont think i'd have many real issues left with GW:EN (the only other two being that there are too many solo quests required for some PvE skills [that really favour some profs over others] and that you should be able to choose what Heroes/Mini's should be on display in the HoM).

Peace,

Ferret

Malice Black · Sep 11, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

Would you mind telling me what GW is for, then? Why would ANet add Hard Mode if they didn't want people to be serious about PvE? Why would they create such zones as Urgoz, The Deep, etc. if they didn't indend for people to take them seriously? ANet intended for Hard Mode to be hard, regardless of whether you think it was or not. Back your posts up with reasoning imo.

Most things in GW are aimed at casual players.

- Green items
- Green items with High End skins
- Easy access to max armor
- Easy access to max items
- Easy access to 'Elite' areas (completing a campaign isn't hard)
- Access to hard mode - finish the game? wow challenging..they should make a real hard mode..something along the lines of 5mill xp required, all campaigns completed etc as it stands now this so called hard mode is a joke.
- Heroes/Henchmen
- Scrolls
- Tomes/Elite tomes
- Buy UAX from online store

In GW:EN they took it one step further

- Former 'l33t' items now drop in PvE
- Even more greens, most easy to farm
- Rez in dungeons?!
- Easy access to these dungeons

I'm not saying you can't be hardcore, it just isn't designed for it.

Hardcore PvE requires people to pay, people who can't or won't pay end up playing GW.

As for Wilderness's little dig - Yes, I don't post long winded posts which consist of 90% garbage. I post a statement/my opinion, if people choose to respond to it then I'll reply/explain further.